Schenkelaars / B&S / keilwerth hybrid

[TOMH]

Hello,
Forgive me for writing in English, but my German is pretty bad.
I have gott a Schenkelaars-branded Baritone Saxophone that I would like to know more about. It is almost certainly made by B&S but has Keilwerth key guards, serial number is 11xx and it has a one-piece bell as opposed to the two-piece bell used on Weltklang horns. It sounds pretty good for such a cheap horn, but it needed lots of work to get tit playable - the Low A mechanism had disintegrated and needed to be re-built, the pads were terrile and all needeed replacing, the bow/pigtail was bent and needed pulling into shape and re-soldering. Here are a few photos to show what it looks like now. Ready for touring I reckon.
https://flic.kr/p/2ohub5o
https://flic.kr/p/2ohwFHp
https://flic.kr/p/2ohwhz2
https://flic.kr/p/2ohubai

[tobi]

Hello,

why don't you disclose the full number?

Even more, I would like to request a full picture of the serial number, including hints such as "made in GDR","made in HollandE" etc...

Thank you for your openness.

Tobi.

[TOMH]

Thanks for the reply, very often full serial numbers aren’t disclosed online, as this has led to fraud before (trotting an item as stolen etc) but anyway, The number is 1119 and there’s no country of manufacture anywhere on the sax, although apart from the key guards it’s a standard B&S I think. https://flic.kr/p/2ohG9Ck

[tobi]

Hi,
thanks for the links.
Initial comment: You are able to put bic pics directly into the threads of this forum.
The links you provided always lead to comments like this:

This disturbes the flow and is kind of frustrating while comparing pictures. If you want further input, you should show your photos directly here. And please use focussed pics, yours are not good quality.

Next, I can say that I believe that the body and the mechanics come from B&S Blue Label, but might have been soldered @ Schenkelaars.
The posts are different than the posts from B&S. Look e.g. at the posts from the cloth-protection. At B&S they are a kind of diamond-shape, at Schenkelaars they are circles.
There is only one ring for the neck-strap, and not three. The Thumb-rest is as well completely different.

In case the serial number is coming from B&S, it would indicate the manufacturing year of mid of 80ths (+/- 1984/85)

The stamping tools for the numbers look the same on both bodies. So another reason for B&S involvement. However, I don't find any information that Schenkelaars purchased components from B&S.

Regards,
Tobi

[tobi]

... Here is to my understanding the most comprehensive summary about Schenkelaars saxophones on the net:


https://www.johanjonker.net/blogs/492-s ... -saxofoons


Johan has created an extraordinary summary - thank you Johan!

@ TOMH: Please let us know if you find some further hints about the history of your bari-saxophone.

Regards, Tobi

[Uwe Ladwig]

... kleine Ergänzung:

"1984 erhielt der westdeutsche Hersteller Julius Keilwerth den Auftrag von Schenkelaars (..), Bariton-Saxofonen für Nordafrika zu liefern, hatte dafür aber nicht genügend Fertigungs-Kapazitäten. Laut Gerhard Keilwerth wurde deshalb ein Sub-Auftrag über etwa 300 Stück neutrale Bariton-Saxofone mit tief A an B&S vergeben. Diese B&S-Instrumente ohne Gravur bekamen kosmetische Keilwerth-Merkmale (z.B. Keilwerth-Klappenschützer) und wurden so ausgeliefert. In den Seriennummernbüchern 1980 bis 1993 von B&S sind allerdings nur 25 Bariton-Saxofone als für Keilwerth gefertigt ausgewiesen: Die Seriennummern 1081 bis 1088, 1145 bis 1151 und 1295 bis 1304." [Ladwig, Uwe: SAXOFONE - ein Kompendium (6. Auflage 2021, S. 160f)]

B&S-Baritonsaxofone wurden ab August 1981 gebaut, die erste Seriennummer war 1.001. Die Werkzeuge für diese Instrumente mit tief A stammen von Werner Roth (1920-2003) aus Breitenfeld, der von 1949 bis 1962 selbst eine unbekannte Anzahl von Saxofonen mit der Bezeichnung WERO ROYAL hergestellt hatte.

Das genannte Saxofon mit der Nummer 1.119 vom November 1984 ist ein Indiz für die Existenz der nicht vollständig im Seriennummernbuch 15 ausgewiesenen Keilwerth-Bestellung.

Herzliche Grüße vom Bodensee nach Markneukirchen

Uwe Ladwig
www.Uwe-Ladwig.de

[TOMH]

Uwe, Vielen Dank für deine Hilfe.

So, that explains why it was made even if it isn't on the official records. I like it very much, although I prefer my Keilwerth/Couf Superba but that only goes down to Bb and I need a low A for the band I am in.